Simon Persico, Professor of Political Science at Sciences Po Grenoble and at the Pacte laboratory

Has ecological concern become consensual?

Nobody can disagree with the goal of preserving the planet or fighting global warming. global warming. This consensus has allowed every political Jacques Chirac and his "burning planet" ("Our house is burning ("Our house is burning and we're looking the other way", said the in 2002) to Laurent Fabius and his "social-ecology to Laurent Fabius and his "social-ecology", or the more recent one Emmanuel Macron's communication. By setting only long-term objectives we sense a reluctance on the part of conservative and social-democratic governments and social-democrats to regulate human activity, production and consumption and consumption to meet the challenges. This lack of action legitimizes the green parties' strategy of autonomy and the radicalization radicalization of environmental organizations and movements.

So ecology isn't necessarily left-wing?

On issues issues such as solidarity, individual rights, immigration and redistribution of wealth redistribution of wealth, most eco-activists and leaders share the values share the values espoused by the left. The proof is that on the on the political spectrum, Green parties are always positioned to the left of liberal liberal and social-democratic parties.

Green MEP Yannick Jadot wants to form a climate coalition "from Borloo to Ruffin". Do you think this is possible?

The problem of the "both sides" strategy outlined by Europe Ecologie-Les Greens is that it depends on the goodwill of the people they're talking to, both on the left and on the centrist side. For Jadot or another Green to reach the second round the second round of the presidential election in 2022, he needs to be able to capture some of the voters who voted Macron, and those who voted Mélenchon in the first round. For the moment, this is hardly credible. We can see it with their strategy of fluctuating alliances for the municipal elections when, in Paris, they in Paris, they're trying to get on Cédric Villani's side, and in Grenoble, they're with La France insoumise.

Can we call this strategy populism?

The term "green populism", used by the French Secretary of State for Ecology Brune Poirson to encompass Mélenchon, Jadot and Le Pen, is an empty concept. there is nothing in common between them. Populism is the simplification of the political confrontation between the people on one side and the elites on the other, as two homogeneous groups. But this makes no sense when it comes to ecology. you have economic elites who are clearly hostile to protecting the planet. hostile to protecting the planet, like the big energy and finance companies. or finance. But there are also other elites, such as international scientists and scientists and researchers, who are very clear about their policy to combat global warming. On the people's side, in a study on the "we carried out, we asked a question about the environment and we question about the environment, and we found that they are just as divided divided as the rest of the French population, some wanting a rapid transition transition and others very hostile to it.

In the 19th century, socialism built an imaginary world around social justice. What would today's climate emergency be like?

The origins of socialism, there was a debate about industrialization. The prevailing that prevailed, which was highly productivist, believed that the productive productive forces to improve workers' living conditions, whatever the consequences the consequences for minority social groups, such as peasants. peasants. But there was also the school of utopian, libertarian socialists, represented by figures such as Elisée Reclus and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, highly critical of the industrial revolution. Ecology could play the same role role by bringing a less statist, less centralist vision to socialist thinking. less centralizing, more cooperative-based, collective means of production means of production, but on a local scale.

Can political ecology become the new emancipatory narrative?

There's a potential political outlet for disaffected left-wing voters, a third way third way from the confrontation between Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, which could revolve around political ecology. We need to rethink the redistribution of wealth, because we know that you can't have economic growth and a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Several intellectuals like Dominique Méda and Eloi Laurent are thinking about a social model that can survive a shrinking economy. This is a real challenge, because the welfare state was built on growth. This requires us to make the between social justice and the ecological crisis.

Is this compatible with financial capitalism and economic liberalism?

We will be be forced to reduce international trade in goods and even people, and relocate and relocate activities. Is this a return to a market economy? That's more complicated. Some forms of organization, such as AMAPs, already operate within free-market mechanisms, but are far removed from the capitalist model. capitalist model. This conviction that forms of self-organization, of relatively free markets markets can work, is one of the fundamentals of political ecology. political ecology. But it's very hard to say you're in favor of the market in political debate. Especially if you want to win over François Ruffin and his friends!

How can the left survive these upheavals?

Social democratic parties will have a hard time of it. But isn't this simply a renewal of the left? Just as the radical parties, dominant at the beginning of the 20th century, were supplanted by other forces, the socialists and communists, positioned on more contemporary issues. We are witnessing the same logic of replacement. Parties will lose their dominance, but the left will not disappear. There will remain a common political space because the preferences of ecologist voters on values are very similar to those of voters for La France insoumise or the Socialist Party. When new issues become structuring, it's the political forces that posed them that benefit. Today, it's the ecologists.

This analysis was originally published in Le Monde on February 28, 2020.